Designing in Parallel: Hardware, RF, and business - Gavin Brown

Speaker: 00:00:07

Today's guest on

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MeteoScientific’s The Business of LoRaWAN

is Gavin Brown, an industrial designer

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turned VP of strategic growth

and design partner at RAK wireless.

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We talk about turning ideas

into real deployments.

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Digging into gateways, antennas, RF design

and off grid LoRaWANs in the wild.

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This episode is sponsored

by the Helium Foundation

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and is dedicated

to spreading knowledge about LoRaWAN.

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If you'd like to learn more

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about the publicly available global

or when they run, visit helium.foundation.

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Now let's dig into the conversation

with Gavin Brown.

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Gavin,

thanks so much for coming on the show.

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I'm psyched to have you here.

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Thanks, Nikki. I appreciate the invite.

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Yeah, it's super cool.

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You're working over at RAK, and we talked

a little bit about what RAK does.

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I'd known them

initially from my exposure via

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helium back in 2020, maybe 2021.

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But you were saying like, hey, it actually

does a lot more than folks think.

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Can you walk me through maybe the 4

or 5 main pillars of what RAK does?

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In a nutshell, it's

the LoRaWAN hardware stack.

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I could probably simplify

that to a couple of pillars initially.

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So gateways

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the core to the networking business

and the tenant, the sector as a whole.

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And modules.

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Modules being ready to use stamp modules.

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Some people call them for end devices

or end device development.

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So it's it's both the,

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the network side and the node side

is probably the key pillars.

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There's a few more in between

that solutions and products that allow you

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to implement those things

in those two domains

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more easily, like services

and things like that.

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I saw something about antenna design,

which I didn't know you guys did at all.

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Is that true?

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It's very true. Yeah. Okay.

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Something which is very key to success

in this domain, that unfortunately,

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the laws of physics apply to everything

we do, especially at radio and wireless.

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So antenna design is something

we do as a service, support our customers.

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And it's mostly focused

towards the node side of customer project.

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Got it.

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What does a typical customer look like?

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I mean I know I've bought gateways

from you guys

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and I've bought devices, but what is it?

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And I'm sure

I'm not one dude in San Diego.

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Your typical customer.

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What what does a typical customer

look like?

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I wish I had a good answer for that

because of the the varied stack

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we operate along amongst, it's

massively varied.

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But if if I could average out.

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Typical customers are looking

for the path of least resistance

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to adopt this technology

because it's key to their business,

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their solution, a customer would have gaps

in their knowledge.

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They would have, you know, some space

for momentum or lack of momentum.

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And yeah, they would be picking RAK

just to sort of ease that journey.

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Got it. Okay.

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So they come to you and say, hey, you guys

are experts in this whole LoRaWAN thing.

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Like, just fix this problem.

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We have this problem.

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Just fix it. Yeah.

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And it could be, let's say network side.

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They say, hey, I want an affordable

network solution gateways.

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And I don't have the

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deep networking background

I can just about set up the office Wi-Fi.

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So okay no problem.

We have something for that.

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Or we have somebody who wants to develop

a very affordable node

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that can run for years on a battery

or some other, you know,

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energy harvesting solution these days

and make that easy for me.

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You know, I'm not a I'm not an expert

or a deep, you know, embedded

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guy or a girl or whatever.

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May God help me.

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So we've got something

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to cover that and we get everything

in between and a mixture of both.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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There's so many red RAK products

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and you've got this background on

was industrial design is what you're into.

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Yeah.

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The core of my

my background is industrial design.

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So I was an actual product

designer developer.

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So I'm a little bit dangerous.

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And a little knowledge

is a dangerous thing I should say.

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Yeah. Got into hardware design also.

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But my, my background is it was designing

physical and digital products

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at scale actually in the consumer domain

and the professional domains.

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And I bring that to RAK

and part of my role.

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Right.

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But it gives me a certain perspective

that allows me to help RAK as a business.

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But obviously our customer. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, you must because I do this and

I have no background in industrial design.

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Do you ever look at IoT products and go,

oh God, that's a mess.

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And then think about the development piece

where it's a blessing and a curse

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because, yeah,

every every object tells a story

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for those who can read it,

I suppose I can, I can read it.

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Yeah.

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So I understand the pain or the challenges

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that were embraced or not,

you know, in something.

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Yeah. So yeah, I look at things I don't

think, okay, I could have done better.

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It's like I have great respect for that.

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The difficulty that would have been

traversed to make that happen.

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Okay. I'm much more judgy than you are.

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I feel like I have things

such a piece of garbage,

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but it sounds like you're much better

about saying, okay, I understand

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the difficulties in bringing

maybe just an idea to to market.

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Can you maybe

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walk me through the that process

where someone comes to you with an idea

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and then kind of what are the big steps

for those of us who don't know about this

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industrial design and designing for scale,

what does that look like?

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Maybe it's take a quick step back

and far is industrial design.

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The definition varies

quite a bit within business circles.

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Okay, I would want to just generalize it

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right now

and say it's kind of a hybrid of art.

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And design and engineering.

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So in in Europe where I'm based,

industrial design

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generally means

when an industrial designer would design

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how the thing looks

and how it behaves, what it does,

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but also they would engineer it.

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So it's kind of it's a it's a hybrid role.

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So yeah, what the process look like.

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And embrace that as a skill set

no matter how you chop it up.

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So if you if you wanted to chop it up

into different pieces, that's fine.

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The process.

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So the best process always

looks like looking at the problem

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first and taking a step back,

that 30,000ft view

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before you get into the,

you know, the three foot view.

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Yeah.

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Because a lot of the

the thinking and the, the engineering

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difficulty and challenges

are best addressed at the beginning.

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You embed them into the design strategy

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before you get deep into the project,

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because that will be more costly

and more painful later.

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And what does that mean

in reality in this domain law one well,

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it means you try to think of some examples

a product, it's too expensive.

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It's the supply chain is not

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sustainable, RF performance

is not good enough or something like that.

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You know, it's a

those things are very hard to solve later.

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So the process just is front heavy

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really focusing on like figuring out

what the actual problems are.

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And then once you have that problem

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set really well defined,

it sounds like then you can

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the design part is probably easier.

Yeah, yeah.

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The more you can define in the beginning

the better.

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Obviously it's unknown and the process

is iterative by its very nature.

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And what where

where RAK stands in this process

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with our customers is to to raise the flag

for that LoRaWAN piece.

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And the radio piece as early as possible.

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You know, obviously,

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I can speak as a generalist,

you know, with

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who is it with an industrial designer

hat on, but not within the RAK companies

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like, hey guys, look, the end of the day,

you're doing IoT, large scale IoT.

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You got to take these boxes to make

that work.

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We're here to help you.

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And we got a team,

you know, and let's work together.

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Got it.

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And are there common mistakes

that you see someone coming to you with?

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With date, they're like,

hey, I've got this IoT project.

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I heard about LoRaWAN.

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You guys are the experts.

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Like, here, I want this widget to work.

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Do you see the same mistakes every time?

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Like, do you guys never think about

what are X, Y, and Z?

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That is a good question.

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And there is one.

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One strong answer.

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Yeah, it's usually the RFP.

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It's the wireless antenna integration.

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We see some

some kind of jumping over that,

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not giving it as much detail

as it needs to be given.

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And then it can create some problems.

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It's not always key to the the mission.

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You know, sometimes

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you know the the dependencies

on the wireless performance or whatever.

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Pretty flexible.

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But yeah, it's usually that's the piece.

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People just jump over that

and it's kind of maybe it's too complex

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or they just go, okay,

I want to do the bit.

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I understand this bit.

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So magic can should happen for me.

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You know, it's it is magic button

but it has its,

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you know, realities got it's understood

magic.

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Okay.

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So it sounds like

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one of the biggest problems

or one of the biggest challenges

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when a customer comes to you guys

and says,

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hey, I've got this widget and

I want you guys to make it LoRaWAN ized,

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it is to educate them on like,

hey, this is what that means,

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and this is where we have to insert

the RF design piece into this process,

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and it's probably much further upstream

than you might think.

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Yeah.

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So is if I lean back on my my

other kind of comment about the process.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it is just getting all this thinking

as early as possible into the project

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or the, you know, the business journey

and being flexible.

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So the education piece

it just being aware of it.

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Wireless is is a is a thing to think about

is key to the success.

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But we live with this wireless stuff

every part of our lives.

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We're hyperconnected

you know we talked about it.

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We have our cell phones

and Wi-Fi, whatever,

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and we all feel the pain

when it doesn't work.

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Yeah, there's some glitches, some glitch,

some temporary downtime.

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You know, I'm go through a tunnel

or whatever, you know, something happens.

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So these are the realities

of all wireless stuff.

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So the education pieces that's a thing

you can mitigate against it.

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If you're smart with your design

strategy and implementation

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you can have like success

like you never dreamed possible.

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And we've got some really good

use cases to demonstrate

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what we've had with customers.

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Tell me about one. What

what can you give me an example there?

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I can give you opposite

ends of the spectrum.

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So yeah.

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So we have one one customer

very large scale.

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They deploy nodes in single sites.

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I can't say too much.

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It's in this sort of geography spectrum.

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So domain they deploying 25 to 50,000

nodes in one area.

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Holy smokes. Okay. Yeah.

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So there's a lot of nodes in one place.

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It's over like a 15 kilometer

by 15 kilometer area.

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They needed a two kilometer range

from their node to succeed.

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Okay.

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They didn't didn't implement it very well.

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They got like 700m.

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Best case, cause them a lot of pain,

you know, a lot of pain.

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And so that was kind of one

example of the, of the shortcomings

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of not integrating.

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Well, and it was just basically

electromechanical design

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in the utility space.

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And they had a node that was underground.

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The antenna was designed in collaboration

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in an, in collaboration with a manhole

cover, you know, a metal manhole cover.

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Yeah.

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And they, they guys are still

the craziest ranger I've ever come across.

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But sort of our gateway

on the roof of their factory, four stories

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kind of mostly line of sight,

but the forest and a few towns.

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But they got 63km. Dang.

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Because they're just

using the manhole cover

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as some kind of antenna extension,

something like that.

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It just has a system inside.

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The deployment uses respect for the the

the technology and the system and design.

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Well.

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And the other one which was I have a node.

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Here's my node is finished.

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Oh somebody I got to put an antenna.

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Oh I have a gap.

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Put it in there.

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So does the vast difference in capability.

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But the commonality there is they're both

kind of ground level antennas you know.

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So that's a similarity.

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Just so there's a massive difference.

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So one is very very good.

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One is not very good. Yeah.

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Borderline not very good.

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But my point is borderline acceptable.

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You know the

the requirements of that project.

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We're not doing much anyway.

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You know,

one two kilometers would be plenty.

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But they just fell short of that still.

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Oh, God.

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Okay, so I'm not saying every

every project needs to be this massive,

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you know, 50 kilometer,

you know, superstar thing, right?

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Yeah. It's it's a it's a crazy thing.

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I was one of the very first,

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most attractive piece of LoRaWAN for me

was just how far it went.

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And when I got into it,

it was through paragliders.

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And so luckily for paragliders

you're always up high.

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So the node is always,

you know,: 5000

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So it's much easier to hit.

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So the kind of 6060 K thing wasn't

an all the time, but it wasn't unusual.

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But having got into this kind of ground

based sensor,

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it's like a 6060

K is pretty unusual, very unusual.

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But we do see some great,

great success stories.

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So I'm champion.

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I always champion

the technology from that point of view.

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But obviously I have this bias

because my role within RAK

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is 50% commercial, 50% kind of R&D.

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I still keep so keep hold of my design.

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I never let that go.

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So I get to be at the coalface

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and work with customers

and these use cases day in, day out.

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So that's why I speak

so passionately about it,

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because I get to see all these things

and help all these developers.

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It's like the most fun job ever.

And it's pretty cool.

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Yeah, I can't complain, I can't complain.

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Do you have a favorite product

either in the RAK line

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or maybe in general

that you're just like, oh,

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this is one of my favorite pieces of IoT

hardware?

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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And it's what we would call the with Gate

Soho Pro,

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which is a gateway and wireless gateway.

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It comes in a small form factor enclosure.

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It's around

kind of 30cm length by around 15.

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And I thinking that's eight,

eight deep is an all in one box.

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And all the antennas are built in

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it's tiny form factor with a modular

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mounting accessories solution

so you can mount it anywhere.

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It's really convenient,

and that's pretty cool

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because it's kind of a different approach

to your classic gateway

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with all the antennas and cables

and stuff everywhere, which is necessary.

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So that's probably one of my favorites

because of its neatness and its elegance

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and the fact that it can blend

in, it can be invisible,

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you know, in the environment.

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And it's yeah, that is interesting.

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I always I like the other side

because I like the big crazy antennas

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and the wild wires,

like it made me feel like I did something.

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But there is an impressive piece to how

small and clean and neat you can get

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some really advanced piece of technology

that just does tons and tons of work.

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So like got just a box in the wall, man,

that's not just a box on a wall.

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No. When you've gone into the kind of

so you've got some respect

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for the challenges there.

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Because inside that product

we've got two Lora antennas, a GPS antenna

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and a cellular antenna

all inside on Wi-Fi.

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Only one box about this big.

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You know, it has to do it, Lora thing

and everything else.

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Yeah.

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So that's a pretty cool,

pretty capable piece of equipment thread.

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That's super cool.

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And then as we wrap this thing up,

is there anything coming down the pipe

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either for LoRaWAN in general

as an industry or for RAK where you're

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like, hey, I'm seeing this thing coming

and I'm really pumped about it.

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Something coming?

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I was probably the strongest thread there,

and it builds upon something

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we already have.

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So we're very strong in the off

grid deployment solution.

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So we have some very strong solar

off-grid battery solution,

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which is key to many utility in large

scale deployments around the world.

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And you

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think about water metering, farming,

you know, a lot of off grid stuff.

326

: 00:15:14

We're struggling that

so more coming in that space.

327

: 00:15:17

Yeah. So more flexibility, more options.

328

: 00:15:20

We see a strong demand for off grid.

329

: 00:15:23

That's rad.

330

: 00:15:24

It does seem that that's where LoRaWAN is.

331

: 00:15:27

It's one of the kind of strongest pillars

is this ability to throw it up

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: 00:15:29

almost anywhere.

333

: 00:15:30

And that it sends out

this bubble of coverage is the real hard

334

: 00:15:33

part is the backhaul back to the internet.

335

: 00:15:35

But that's getting solved with satellite

and everything else.

336

: 00:15:37

So it's it's pretty cool to see.

337

: 00:15:38

I should maybe extend on

that is one thing coming.

338

: 00:15:41

Is it actually is it is publicized.

339

: 00:15:43

But in the dimensions

of Non-terrestrial backhaul,

340

: 00:15:45

we actually have a gateway mesh solution,

which also helps solve that problem.

341

: 00:15:50

So we have that something we developed.

342

: 00:15:52

And that's a mesh solution

within the gateway

343

: 00:15:56

where you can have cellular connectivity

or traditional backhaul with one

344

: 00:16:00

or more gateways,

345

: 00:16:01

because the other gateway serving

your LoRaWAN network don't have backhaul.

346

: 00:16:05

So the mesh can hop between gateways.

347

: 00:16:07

So that's something we're seeing more

348

: 00:16:09

and more demand for

in the context of this solar deployment.

349

: 00:16:12

And we have for example, a good project

in and I'm based in the UK, but in Wales

350

: 00:16:17

we have to have what they call

the valleys is in the, you know, the

351

: 00:16:19

the mountainous region of Wales.

352

: 00:16:21

There's just no cellular coverage

353

: 00:16:22

and Non-terrestrial is quite,

not quite ready yet.

354

: 00:16:25

So we have the gateway mesh solution

with the solar deployed there.

355

: 00:16:29

So you know that's kind of

solving everything very cheaply.

356

: 00:16:32

You know, in very readily.

357

: 00:16:34

Yeah I Wales

Wales is near and dear to my heart.

358

: 00:16:36

I went to a climbing camp there

when I was a kid and it just

359

: 00:16:39

I'd heard about it.

360

: 00:16:40

It's like, oh,

361

: 00:16:41

you just think of the animal,

even though it's not spelled like that.

362

: 00:16:43

So it must be a boring place

when you drive through.

363

: 00:16:45

It's like, this is one of the most

beautiful places on Earth is red.

364

: 00:16:49

Yeah, well, there's parts of it

not very well connected, and it's just.

365

: 00:16:52

Just touches the physics of it, you know?

366

: 00:16:54

So that's why, you know,

why LoRaWAN really stands out there.

367

: 00:16:58

So yeah, there's a couple of things,

you know, they work hand in hand.

368

: 00:17:00

You know RAK is very modular

in terms of its products.

369

: 00:17:03

We you know we're agnostic.

370

: 00:17:05

You can you know, you pick as much of it

as you want or as little

371

: 00:17:09

as you want above our stack.

372

: 00:17:10

You know, we've got something for

everybody.

373

: 00:17:12

Just tools in the toolbox.

374

: 00:17:13

I'm always, always keeping an eye on

what you guys doing is always rad stuff.

375

: 00:17:16

Gavin, thanks

a ton for making the time to come on.

376

: 00:17:18

I know you're super busy

with designing stuff, making sure

377

: 00:17:21

RAK is going down the right place,

and having the empathy for product

378

: 00:17:24

development. So thanks for carving out

time from your day.

379

: 00:17:26

Thank to invite.

380

: 00:17:27

Yeah, really

appreciate it and had the fun taking part.

381

: 00:17:31

That's it for the show.

382

: 00:17:32

Thanks so much for listening.

383

: 00:17:33

If you want to find out more about what

I'm doing over at MeteoScientific

384

: 00:17:36

and use a global LoRaWAN that costs

a thousandth of a penny for 24 by packet

385

: 00:17:40

on a free trial,

Head to Meteoscientific.com.

386

: 00:17:44

A huge thanks to the sponsor of this show,

the Helium Foundation.

387

: 00:17:47

Please check them out at helium.foundation

or look in the show notes for links

388

: 00:17:50

to their LoRaWAN coverage map.

389

: 00:17:52

I'm Nik Hawks with MeteoScientific.