Episode 30

The LoRaWAN Tsunami with Olivier Hersent

Olivier Hersent, founder and CEO of Actility, talks about the accelerating convergence of LoRaWAN and BACnet in building automation, and what that means for retrofits, logistics, and the future of wireless sensing. With BACnet still dominating 70% of the building automation market—even on brand new PLCs—Olivier explains why making LoRaWAN invisible to integrators is critical, and how Actility is bridging these two worlds one sensor at a time.

He also shares insights into the work Actility is doing with custom sensing and logistics tracking, including real-world deployments in automotive assembly lines, massive vehicle yards, and remote conservation areas. From RS485-era wired sensors to modern closed-loop logistics, Olivier points to a shift toward simplicity and targeted data collection, where most application layers are 99% noise and only one bit matters.

  • Why BACnet remains the king of building automation—and what makes integrating LoRa so difficult
  • How Actility is streamlining LoRaWAN-to-BACnet translation by mapping and testing each individual sensor
  • The growing role of AI in simplifying sensor driver creation and semantic standards
  • A new market segment in geolocation: closed-loop logistics and the return of valuable assets
  • Why Africa is poised to be the next major IoT growth market, with utilities growing 50% year-over-year
  • The cost advantages of LoRaWAN for emerging economies and remote infrastructure
  • Why older, simpler wired protocols like RS485 are easier to port to LoRaWAN
  • How LoRaWAN could reduce power grid strain by syncing appliances with real-time energy signals
  • Olivier’s advice for new founders: help wired sensing companies go wireless

Olivier Hersent on LinkedIn

Actility

Transcript
Speaker:

Today's guest on MeteoScientific's

the Business of LoRawan is Olivier

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Hersent, founder and CEO of Actility,

one of the core companies

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behind the global LoRaWAN movement.

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Olivier isn't just a leader in the space,

he's a founder.

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He helped

write the original LoRaWAN standards

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and has spent the past decade driving

real world adoption across

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smart cities, industry

and infrastructure worldwide.

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In this episode, we dig into the explosive

growth of LoRaWAN in building

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automation, especially its integration

with the legacy BACnet protocol.

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Olivia explains how bridging LoRaWAN

with BACnet is unlocking massive retrofit

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potential in existing

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buildings, an overlooked

but crucial market for wireless sensing.

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He also walks us through emerging

geolocation use cases in closed loop

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logistics like automotive manufacturing

and vehicle tracking, and offers a sharp

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look at how AI and LoRaWAN are beginning

to work together at the edge.

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We covered deployments in Africa, defense

applications and Olivier's

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thoughts on what it would take to start

a successful LoRaWAN business today.

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Let's dig in. Enjoy the convo.

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Right on Olivier.

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Thanks so much for making the time to come

on. I know you're busy.

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It's great to have you here.

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Hi Nik, thanks for picking me up.

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Yeah, of course

it's it's an honor to have you on.

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I thought we'd start talking about

one of the big things that I'm hearing

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a ton about in LoRaWAN right now,

which is this connection with BACnet,

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which seems to be kind of the next big

frontier in smart buildings in general.

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Can you walk me through

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why it's such a big deal for you

as you're looking into kind of LoRaWAN

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in general and say, like,

this is what this will unlock for us?

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Well, you know what everybody says about

new technologies in new markets, right?

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It's very hard.

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So you tend to be willing to find

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something that new technology is useful

for in an existing market.

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Building

automation is probably one of the biggest,

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most stable markets around here.

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But it's very, very,

very legacy in that market.

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The king protocol is BACnet,

so to a certain degree, Modbus as well.

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But BACnet is really like 70% dominant

in that market.

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This protocol is so old that I don't know

if you will even remember all the times

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where you had to connect, coax Ethernet

and you had no, you know, it.

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So it was all broadcast.

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So, so BACnet is so old

that doesn't support routing.

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You know,

you can't have routed IP packets.

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But interestingly,

even if you buy a brand new PLC today

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to control the building,

it will have that BACnet.

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So we figured that if we would bridge

LoRaWAN and BACnet together,

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you would make things so much simpler

for anyone trying to retrofit

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a new sensor use case

in an existing building without the wires.

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And there are a few technologies,

wireless technologies that worked

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in the building automation

space and ocean being one.

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But nothing was really like good enough

for everything, you know.

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Works just as good as wired.

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And somehow it seems the market

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is not perceiving LoRaWAN

as being as good as wired.

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And because of the link with BACnet

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as easy to use as my good,

good old wired sensor.

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So it's been the boom surprising

even to us.

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You know, an example

I want to give the in in that market

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the dominant software is Niagara

by a company called Tritium.

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In the Tritium user forum,

you would have nothing about LoRa, right?

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Why would you.

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It's totally different space

in the Niagara User forum in London.

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That was six months ago.

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Each booth, like 100% of the booths,

had the LoRaWAN gateway on the stand.

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And all of them

were talking about wireless sensing.

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So it's been massive and it's going to be

even bigger in the years to come.

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So great. Yeah.

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Yeah. It's good.

And you've called it a tsunami, which is.

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Which is pretty

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is pretty pretty big word there as far

as the promise of what's to come.

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What do you think are the bottlenecks?

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Are there going to be enough

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people who know enough about LoRaWAN

and BACnet and integrating them?

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Or is it just like,

oh, there's millions of buildings

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and there's only a couple

hundred engineers who know how to do this.

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Like, what are the things that are going

to really slow this down?

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That's the whole point, this industry,

I mean, the building automation

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industry is resource constrained.

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There are few experts.

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They are used 120%.

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They have no will whatsoever

to learn a new technology.

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It's not that they're not curious.

They don't have the time.

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So the whole point is to make LoRa

completely transparent to them.

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What we do is we actually take all the

LoRa sensors, we convert them to BACnet

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in a way that you just connect back to

your existing layer, and it's all working.

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You don't need to even understand

what LoRaWAN is doing.

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And if you don't make it that easy,

it doesn't work.

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This doesn't work.

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Even 1% doesn't work at all.

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There

no way to get in this market. Got it.

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And so that will be an advantage

or a moat for Actility to say, hey,

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we can make BACnet easy.

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Is it as easy for someone

or some other company to do?

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Or is it that is a unique kind of ability

that Actility has?

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It's a lot of work.

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It’s not about being more intelligent

than others.

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Like many, many things, it's

about being more persistent.

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You need to take each and every sensor

around there in the LoRaWAN world.

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And as you know, LoRaWAN doesn't

have a standard for the application layer.

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So any sensor

is going to have a different way of,

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you know, different semantics,

different ways of doing what it does.

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You need to read it, understand it,

build a driver, map it to BACnet, test it.

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And and it's it's it's a lot of work.

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But we we've we've been doing this

for many years now.

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And we, we think we're getting to,

to that point where it's all,

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you know, smooth enough

to, to be used by BACnet professionals.

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And do you think that

AI will have a place in this?

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It seems like it's

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I mean, I have been super helpful to me

into LoRaWAN fairly new since:

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So saying like, okay,

hey, write me a decoder or fix this thing

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or figure this thing out.

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And you know, something,

even as general as GPT will will do that,

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I think it will actually.

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We are trying.

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But as you know, AI needs examples.

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So at this point we're trying to

first of all, we do it a lot manually

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while trying to also improve the standard,

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because the best way to not have to write

drivers is to make sure

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people, the right drivers

in the correct way up front.

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The LoRa alliance has progressed

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a little bit there,

but not enough in the actual semantics.

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So there is still progress to do.

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And once we have all these examples,

I think not now, but maybe in a year

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we'll be able

to, you know, have a prompt like,

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look at these 100 examples, just read

the manual, please write the same thing.

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And I think it will work.

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And is that something that Actility

is going to make available

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as a tool to its customers, or

do you think that will just be available

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in general in the marketplace

or some hybrid?

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So right now what we do

is we obviously the standard itself,

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we push in the LoRa Alliance

and we continue to it.

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So that's available to everyone.

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And and actually most maybe

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60-70% of LoRaWAN sensor vendors

now adopt the standard.

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And we're trying to progress it

in terms of writing your own drivers.

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It's available in our tools.

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You can pick an existing driver,

tweak it, improve it, or write your own.

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And the next step with the AI writing

is something that we're working on.

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Of course, it's not yet something you can

just click on and from your driver.

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We're getting there.

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It's it's it's amazing to me

how fast it's progressing.

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So it's a very cool time to be alive.

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One of the other themes it's coming up

is this I think you're calling it

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or you call it closed loop logistics,

where there's this new market segment

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where people are just saying,

hey, I want my own piece.

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Can you walk me through

how you're thinking of that, that idea?

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Yeah, that the main point is

that it is a new market

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segment in geolocation and logistics.

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Overall.

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People tend to say, well,

what about tracking a truck?

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You know, that type of thing.

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So I use cellular or satellite,

and that used to be the logistics market.

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But today we're getting into use cases

that the most

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recent one I can quote

is an automotive manufacture.

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In the assembly chain,

they used to just have,

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you know, forge, walk, point, spare parts

and you know,

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how many spare parts

you're going to use per day.

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And it's it's fairly static.

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But now your trucks have e-fuels,

hybrid fuels.

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So different engines.

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So you get more and more options.

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So it's become impossible

to know in advance how many spare parts

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you know you need every hour.

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You need to measure it.

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You need to track your spare parts

throughout the factory.

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So these kind of use cases

where you need to track things inside

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and outside the factory,

or you build the engine in one factory

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and then you put the engine on the cradle,

you send it to another factory,

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but you want them to return the cradle

because the cradle is worth $1,000.

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There is a ton of use cases like this,

and it's it's fairly new.

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LoRa is the perfect thing because you want

something that works indoors,

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outdoors, very inexpensive,

and obviously the location itself

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is using the usual suspects

BLE sniffing, Wi-Fi sniffing GNSS outside.

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But but the glue the backhaul is LoRaWAN

and it's yeah, a very successful

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use case for us. Yeah.

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And this was

I know I talked to Julien over at Volvo

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about this a while ago

and on one of these shows, and I'm

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pretty sure they're using Actility.

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Yeah, Volvo was using it

to track the trucks throughout their

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assembly chain all the way to the parking,

but there are others.

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Finished vehicle logistics is another one.

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And now with all this tech stuff,

you get huge stockpiles of vehicles

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that were pushed through

before a tax increase

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or they left on the parking

because you can't sell them, you know.

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So there are massive parkings out there

with 20, 30,000 cars.

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And you need to find these cars

and you only have like what,

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eight different colors?

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You divide 20,000 by eight.

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It's still a lot of identical cars.

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So that's also a case for closed loop

logistics where LoRa is

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just the perfect technology.

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Oh, interesting.

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And do you think that we'll see kind of

custom tracker stuff like that, where

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it'll just be a magnet tracker

and you put it on the top of a car

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one minute,

and then as the car leaves the lot,

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you pull the tracker off

and put on the next thing.

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Or is that not really what you're saying?

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We do have this.

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We we have a subsidiary called Abeeway

that that makes obviously

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standard trackers.

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You know, I have one like here and

but indeed more and more we get customers

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who are obviously for a certain volume,

you know, like:

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They go to us with very specific

requirements.

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The finished vehicle logistics,

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for example, you want to have something

that flashes very strong

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so you can identify that specific car

here.

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Recently we've been working

with an animal reserve in Africa

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where they want to get a sort of emergency

SMS like signal. You.

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You pair your phone with the tracker

and if you lose the cellular signal,

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you can still have a primitive way of SMS

through the tracker.

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This kind of thing, we see more and more,

and it's actually easy to do

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because once you get the core

obviously sensor and LoRaWAN part,

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adding a few IOs here

and there is not so difficult.

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And in the end

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it's mostly the cost is mostly plastics

if you need new form factors.

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Yeah. And you spent time

growing up in Africa, right.

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So it must be nice for you

to kind of return back

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to, to that a little bit

and have a reason to pay attention to it.

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It is great.

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And there are two things in Africa

that are great,

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of course,

this kind of tracking use cases.

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The other thing is running

water is coming to Africa in the in

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it was of course in the main big cities,

but now it's coming to cities

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below 10,000 inhabitants

and it's a revolution.

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Here we'll talk about AMI

when when you and I talk around in Europe

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or the US about what it's all about,

or do you have that smart meter?

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But in Africa it's more interesting.

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It's, oh, do you have water?

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And there are utilities there

that grow 50% a year.

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And again,

it's a great use case for LoRaWAN there

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because most cellular networks

are still 2G very expensive.

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So utility don't bother

they just deploy their own infrastructure.

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Interesting.

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It's I mean I always remember this story

about Africa going straight

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to cell towers and never putting in,

you know, hard lines for phones.

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They may just go straight to LoRaWAN.

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It's kind of the sensorial net

for everything across the continent.

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They do.

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And Ivory Coast

is one of the leading countries.

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They're very interesting

with what they're doing. It's

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and yeah, we, we see lots of, you know,

it's it would be an economic podcast.

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Everyone says Africa is probably

the next high growth economy in IoT.

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It's also true

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I think actually we spend a lot of time in

Africa, a lot of attention, because it's

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I think it's going to be fairly

explosive there on basic infrastructure.

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I interesting

because it always seemed to me

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like they just that the capital depth

isn't there to manage

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or to support that, but it sounds like the

maybe the raw resources.

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But you know what, LoRa is inexpensive.

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The budget to do a nationwide network

is, what, 15-20 million.

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It's yeah.

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For utilities

nothing. It's it's pocket money.

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So it's not the issue

actually that the cost point or LoRa makes

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it really suitable for,

emerging economies.

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Oh very cool.

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So you I mean, you've been in LoRaWAN

since the beginning.

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You helped write

the standard and founded the whole thing.

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If you could maybe rewind the clock

a little bit or think of it,

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is some 20 year

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old kid comes up to you and says, hey,

I want to start a company in LoRaWAN.

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What should I be looking at

or paying attention to that

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I should build in the next couple of years

where would you direct them?

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Oh, that's a tough one.

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I think now it's mature enough

that you no longer

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really talk about LoRaWAN in general.

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You need to

you need to focus on your use case.

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Okay.

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So my yeah, my advice would probably pick

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a problem

that LoRaWAN can solve that you can solve.

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No. Together with a sensor.

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And I'm getting very excited

on this custom sensing thing.

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Actually, if I would start something.

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No, that's probably what I would do,

because there is an enormous legacy

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industry of sensing all wired,

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and they're all coming to wireless,

so they all need help.

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So I think there is a huge market

to to just go around,

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visit existing sensing companies

and help them go wireless.

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That's probably

one of the things I would push for.

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And is that something

where you would basically say like, hey,

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you cut the old wires and you add

in this LoRaWAN radio with the battery

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or are you saying like, hey,

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you would just create an entirely

new sensor to replace the old one?

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If you take metering, it's a good example.

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You take an existing protocol like DLMS.

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It's really more the application layer.

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That's the problem.

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Changing just the PHY layer

is really not the problem at all.

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But when you're wired,

you tend to be talkative.

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Not if you have a very old sensor

and actually many of those belong

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to the very old category

where they are still using RS485,

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you know, very slow connections for these.

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The switch to LoRaWAN

is actually fairly easy,

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but if you were used to cellular,

for example, the switch

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from cellular to LoRaWAN

is a bit more painful.

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Street

lighting is a perfect example of this,

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but most of the time when you look

at these very fat application layers,

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a lot of XML, a lot of JSON, it's 99% fat.

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You know, sometimes you just get one bit

in the middle of a big JSON

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so that the consulting part of

it is just say, okay, well, you're

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actually just interested in that one bit.

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Well guess what, just transmit that bit,

get rid of the rest,

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you reconstruct the rest.

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So it's a bit of consultative usually not

not too difficult most of the time.

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And it's it's part of the adaptation work.

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Very cool.

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And I think we, we end up with this thing

that I don't hear a bunch about.

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Every so often I'll get a hint of it

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on LinkedIn or something,

which is LoRaWAN and the military.

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What are you seeing with with military

as far as them using LoRaWAN?

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Like how are they using it?

What are they thinking of?

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What does that look like?

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We've seen obviously this is not

the mainstream technology in the military,

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but we see it more and more.

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Perhaps the most logical use case

that I can't disclose the where and who,

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but I can tell you it's active together

in live Military bases is way to truck

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the people,

the vehicle and the tools on an air base.

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I have been in the military, I think

you have to, if you're on a big air base,

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there are thousands of people

going around.

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And today

that the security, when a visitor gets

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in, you get the paper badge

and you feel secure.

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Okay? He gets his badge right.

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He can go anywhere.

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Obviously, no real security behind it.

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So now in some cases, they actually get

the badge that tracks them around.

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Of course you can take it off, but

if you take it off, it's stopped moving.

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And guess what? That's an alarm.

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If you get to a place where you shouldn't

be going, you have an alarm.

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Same for vehicles.

You get to bus in the base.

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The bus is supposed to go to that place,

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or this car to that place,

and back at that place and nowhere else.

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So more and more we see this kind of

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additional security layers

come up with electronics.

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The other thing is finding stuff around,

and you get great videos

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of Cisco on that, because obviously

there are a lot in the US Army base.

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And you would expect that if certifies or,

you know, it's all sci fi around it,

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but that descriptions

of how in the real world

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there are still pliers,

there are still tools.

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And it's like, you know, very, very human.

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If you forget the screwdriver

and you might have forgotten it

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in an airplane engine,

that's worth a billion.

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Some of these air bases

they get shut entirely, no one gets out,

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no one gets in

until you find that damn screwdriver.

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So more and more you get tracking for

in also in these bases to

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to make sure you get less and less of

this lost item could be a weapon,

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could be a $100,000 tool, or

it could be a $10 tool in the wrong place.

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And you just want to find it.

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Yeah.

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Oh interesting. Okay.

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So it's really the application of of

wireless, IoT, you know across the board.

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Okay.

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If we then kind of finish up

by this idea of

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LoRaWAN is is still growing

IoT is still growing.

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We're seeing this pretty amazing

coming together of AI and IoT,

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where IoT is providing

basically like the nervous network,

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the nervous system of the world

where AI can say, okay, now

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I can see this thing,

I can sense this thing.

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They can start to really interact

with the physical world.

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What do you think it looks like

when we're done?

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What do you think it looks like

when kind of the IoT

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:

is really fully developed

across the world?

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How does that change our lives?

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Obviously, there is a lot of optimization

that will go on.

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:

I can give you an example

about integration of renewable energy.

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We all hear that, okay.

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:

You get a lot of wind

farms, a lot of solar.

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And that's a problem because, you know,

you get more energy, less energy.

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:

How do you adapt to this randomness.

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And very often it's presented

like an almost unsolvable problem.

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:

But guess what?

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If tomorrow

all your fridges, all our fridges,

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:

all our electric cars receive a signal?

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:

Okay, now energy is a lot cheaper.

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Just go on.

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:

I, you know, turn on the compressor right

now, charge the car a little faster. Now

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:

the problem is gone.

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:

There is no investment behind it.

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:

You know, you don't need to invest

in a ton of new batteries or whatever.

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:

You just need to make the existing cars,

the existing charging systems of cars

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:

smarter or AC,

you know, air conditioning is coming.

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:

In the US It's everywhere already.

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:

But in the rest of the world, France

included.

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:

It's coming

now. All these heat pumps, same.

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:

You know,

you control that heat pump by half degree.

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:

Up or down.

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:

You get an enormous energy buffer

that can valorize

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:

additional energy or vice versa, release

more energy to the grid when needed.

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:

There are tons of examples like this

where it's just way more efficient,

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:

a lot less weight,

a lot less costs than than today.

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:

And the other thing

is, when it comes to AI today,

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:

setting up an alarm, things like,

you know, if the temperature becomes

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:

more than 25 degrees for more

and so on, it's an extra

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:

thing and people are lazy

and you just don't do it.

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:

I think tomorrow you'll just be able

and actually we'll doing some trials here.

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:

You just talk to and I say, okay,

my idea of an alarm is that,

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:

you know, it's more or less this and,

and it creates the rules by itself.

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:

I think it will also make it easier

and more massive to,

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:

to just create the smart things

by talking to some AI system.

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:

Yeah.

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:

It is super cool to think that, you know,

we started the conversation

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:

talking about BACnet and LoRaWAN

why and how there's

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:

this kind of limited amount of people

that understand the entirety of it.

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:

And it's it's becoming easier is really

these LLMs are allowing us

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:

just to, to start to speak to our world

and to speak to the world of IoT.

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:

And it's a pretty, pretty cool time

to be alive and to be experiencing that.

405

:

Indeed.

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:

And it's, you know,

when you put the BACnet and the age of it

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:

and AI and you can bridge this, this.

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:

to, it's an interesting perspective

through time.

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:

Yeah. Yeah, it's very cool.

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:

Hey, I know you're super busy.

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:

I really appreciate you

making the time to come on.

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:

Thank you so much for coming on

and talking with us

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:

on The Business of LoRaWAN.

It was great talking to you Nik.

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:

That's it for

this episode of The Business of LoRaWAN.

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:

I built this for you.

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:

So whether you're a business owner,

a lawyer, one professional or a hobbyist,

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:

the intent is to give you great LoRaWAN

information.

418

:

Of course,

the best information doesn't come from me.

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:

It comes from the conversations

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:

we have with the people building

and deploying this tech in the real world.

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:

And that's where you come in.

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:

LoRaWAN is a global

patchwork of talent and ideas.

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:

And ironically,

for a globally connected network,

424

:

most of the brilliant folks working on it

aren’t connected yet.

425

:

Help me change that.

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:

Introduce me

to someone awesome in your network,

427

:

someone doing meaningful work in LoRaWAN,

or just shoot me a name.

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:

I'll take it from there

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:

and get them on the show

so we can share their work with the world.

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:

You can always find me at metsci.show.

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:

That's M-E-T-S-C-I dot

432

:

S-H-O-W, metsci.show.

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:

If you want to support the show

in other ways, you can subscribe,

434

:

leave a review,

share it with your corner of the world.

435

:

All those are super helpful.

436

:

If you'd like to support financially,

you can go to support.metsci.show

437

:

for both one time and recurring options.

438

:

We're also open to sponsors.

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:

If your company serves

the LoRaWAN community

440

:

and you want to reach this dedicated

audience, let's talk.

441

:

If you want to try LoRaWAN for yourself,

create a MeteoScientific account

442

:

at console.meteoscientific.com

and get your first 400 DC for free,

443

:

which is enough to run a device

sending hourly for about a year.

444

:

This show is supported

445

:

by a grant from the Helium Foundation

and produced by Gristle King, Inc..

446

:

I'm Nik Hawks.

I'll see you on the next show.

About the Podcast

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The Business of LoRaWAN
Learn From the Pros

About your host

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Nik Hawks

Incurably curious, to stormy nights and the wine-dark sea!